In an effort to enforce quality, the HEC recently announced that they would not recognize PhD degrees awarded unless the recipient manages to score a 40 percentile on the GRE subject test at the time of admission to the graduate program, reported here. This is a revision of HEC’s earlier policy, announced four years back, that the GRE subject test must be cleared before submitting the thesis. The announcement has proven controversial among PhD instructors and their students.
The controversy spilled over in Quaid-e-Azam University (QAU), where the QAU syndicate and the QAU academic council are split over the issue (reported here). Dr. Sohail Naqvi, Executive Director of the HEC, was challenged by protesters during his visit to the QAU campus. Prof. Pervez Hoodbhoy, the chairman of the Physics department at QAU, supports the initiative by the HEC and recently wrote in its defense; we have shared his article here.
So, should PhD students need to clear the GRE before being awarded their PhDs?
I think that the issue raises broad questions such as:
(1) Should there be standardized tests in Pakistan? If yes, what types of test? General? Subject?
(2) Who should administer the standardized tests? GRE, Government of Pakistan?
(3) Can a standardized test be conducted in a manner similar to India? What are the pros and cons?
(4) If GRE is used as the standardized test, how to address the cost of taking GRE? Should government subsidize the cost of taking GRE?
(5) In US, people taking GRE have usually taken SAT which is not the case in Pakistan.
Yes, standardized tests for graduate students are desperately needed. Pakistani graduate students, when compared even to Pakistani undergraduates, are abysmal. As there is nothing but incentive for universities and advisers to churn out PhD students, we need some quality control.
I have a recommendation for the HEC: instead of giving personal cash to advisers for PhD students, contribute to a discretionary funding account to the adviser. Or make an endowed chair for the advisor if he or she managed to graduate a certain number of students. This personal gain is obviously going to have a corruptive influence on a system that is supposed to be fueled not by cash but by the thirst for knowledge and discovery.
As far as personal cash is concerned, one model is what LUMS is following. The honorarium given to professors by HEC is not given to the professors. Rather it goes into a common pool for equipment for the PhD students and graduate research labs.
GREAT TEHSEEN I AGREE
As long as it’s the GRE subject test, why not ?
GRE tests are very expensive to take for ordinary Pakistani. Unless government provides money for tests, this is will filter out poor students.
It is interesting to note that the protesters aren’t saying that they can’t pass the exam; they’re saying it’s an affront to their dignity. So, what simpler way of demonstrating the redundancy of the HEC initiative than taking the test and passing it en masse? It is only an affront to their dignity if they can easily pass it.
The initiative is *far* from perfect, but in an imperfect word, it is a necessary and much needed step to ensure a minimum quality at the PhD level.
Definitely someone who gets a PhD degree should be able to score a reasonable percentage in a test pitched at undergraduate level. If not, then there is something seriously flawed in the system. As such, the HEC initiative is welcome.
However, given the poor undergraduate preparation of some potential students, I think they need some time to prepare for this test. There are students who definitely have potential, just need some polishing up. Hence, in our PhD qualifier exams, we are now testing broad undergraduate level preparation. A student typically spends some time in the graduate program before attempting the qualifiers. So the challenge is given up-front – by this date, you should do a good revision of undergraduate fundamentals, because they will be tested thoroughly in the qualifiers.
If a university has reasonable safeguards like this, then requiring GRE at the time of admission may not be necessary. However, I think most universities do not have strict quality filters. Hence the regulator, HEC, has to step in, which is a welcome step.
I think most students need a year or so to prepare for the GRE. They can probably not do well in it immediately after their undergrad degree. Hence, for those universities who are giving the students the option of direct admission to the PhD program (after 16 yrs education), the HEC requirement may mean that they have to curtail that option.
There is little doubt that the GRE can probably help identify the potential super-student as well as those who are not at all ready academically. Those are easy calls. The real challenge is whether the test identifies meaningful differences among your applicants, and there is little evidence that it does.
It’s a continuous scale. Why can’t it identify meaningful difference between applicants? The fact that universities around the world use it as a measure is considerable evidence that it does.
HEC has imposed GRE Subject test not the general and here is the number of students appearing in GRE Subject all over the world: (Data taken from GRE Guide book 2009)
SUBJECT 3 year one year
Biochemistry,… 6,252 2084
Biology 12,405 4135
Chemistry 8,392 2797
Computer Science 5,612 1870
Literature in English 10,920 3640
Mathematics 9,848 3283
Physics 12,962 4321
Psychology 25,693 8564
This low number shows the poor popularity of GRE Subject Test (Not the general)
In GRE Guide Book 2009, it is written
“Regardless of the decision to be made, multiple sources of information should be used to ensure fairness and balance the limitations of any single measure of knowledge, skills, or abilities. These sources may include undergraduate grade point average, letters of recommendation, personal statement, samples of academic work, and professional experience related to proposed graduate study. GRE scores should not be used exclusively”
“HEC IS USING THIS TEST EXCLUSIVELY”
Also there are many other flaw to use this test, which are clearly mentioned in GRE Guide Book 2009 and HEC is not following it.
Above data considered like this
SUBJECT ——–3 year—– one year
Biochemistry,… —–6,252—– 2084
Biology —–12,405 —–4135
Chemistry —–8,392 —–2797
Computer Science—– 5,612 —–1870
Literature in English—– 10,920—– 3640
Mathematics 9,848 3283
Physics —–12,962—– 4321
Psychology —–25,693—– 8564
Yes they should pass the GRE with the incentive that if possible the government should reimbruse the fee of those who pass the GRE. It is an issue that many students from the lower socio-economic background do not appear in the GRE due financial constraints. Also it would not be a bad idea either if those professors who supervise PhD students are also encouraged to pass the GRE if that is what is expected from students who would work under their supervision. The teacher/supervisor should be a step ahead of the student/supervisee.
Ilyas, look at this from the tax payer’s perspective. Is it too much for the Pakistani tax payers to ask a 22,23 year old students with 16 years of education, mostly on tax payers expense, to find a way to save Rs. 15,000 and take the GRE if he or she wants to spend another few hundred thousand of the tax payers money on his/her education?
Only 3-5% of our population even makes it through the doors of our universities. The fraction that has the luxury of pursuing a PhD is way, way smaller than that. But, the enormous cost of this education — and higher education is a very expensive enterprise, is borne by everyone in the forms of taxes and borrowing against future taxes.
I do not know how many students there are who can afford to NOT work until 28 years of age (which is what it usually takes to earn a PhD) and yet they can’t find a way to pay the fee for GRE. But, if there are students in this category, I hope that our people will organize to find a way to help these students. But policy-making cannot be dictated by that extremely narrow case.
I think that GRE requirement is a good initiative by HEC and will definitely improve the quality of PhD. However the thing I am not comfortable with is the way it is being imposed. In my opinion GRE should be a filtering step for the admission in PhD rather than a requirement to complete the PhD. Requiring senior PhD students to go for this is like adding a secondary level of screening on top of candidacy exam or thesis defense. This in my opinion is humiliating not just for the students but also for the system, just because it is meant to be entry level exam not a graduation mile stone. Will HEC also consider GRE as a requirement for the faculty to get placement in the universities? I know that more than 70 % of current faculty in Pakistani universities will not be able to get the required percentile and they are also not required to because they should be specialized in their areas and it is just not the right time for the GRE.
GRE is an admission requirement now. But, what do you suggest be done to students who are already in various programs? Let them sail and add to the glut of under-qualified degree holders? I don’t see another option, frankly.
But, let’s back-track for a moment. HEC should not be in this business to begin with. These are decisions that should be taken at the department level. Each department in each university should be trying to raise its own standards by inducting highest quality students and faculty, and, yes, getting rid of under-qualified ones where possible. But, old habits die hard, and sadly our universities are looking for excuses to not offend the students/faculty. If they were really serious about raising their standards, they could, for example, fail incompetent students in their candidacy or defense exams and we won’t be having this discussion. But, that’s not happening. Or at least in the eyes of HEC that’s not happening. And, I trust their judgment on this since they have no reason to create these sorts of problems for themselves.
It is really sad to see HEC as being the only `adult’ in the system (as an institution). This isn’t a sustainable or proper role for HEC, but we have the system we have, and it’ll take time for it to mature.
No, they should not.
Academics would be up in arms if the government in the United States started mandating from upon high requirements for graduation. That there is a spectrum of quality in graduating PhDs is well understood. There are a large number of US universities that consistently produce PhDs of pathetic quality — this is the cost of academic freedom.
I have little sympathy for the protestors who appear to be motivated by survival rather than principle, but in the interest of maintaining academic independence, it may be better for the HEC to use more of the carrot than the stick. Reward institutions and professors that maintain high quality, instead of punishing institutions that do not.
GRE is an important requirement and it must be a mandatory requirement.
It is not compulsory for students to pursue a PhD degree. Or is it?
I am not in the favour of GRE but I guess that’s just one side of the picture. If the purpose of making GRE mandatory is to maintain quality, HEC should try (for once) not to take the easy way out. Granting every university the “W” category and then relying on an external exam to judge the caliber of students is hardly the way to go. Even the most lame university here in Peshawar pride themselves as W category universities as recognized by HEC. Why not maintain a higher level of examination and impose some restrictions (both on procedure and on results) in terms of local examinations?
It’s the same case with ‘HEC recognized journals’. They only recognize journals indexed by ISI (Thomson Scientific). What about the other indexing organizations? They won’t recognize some of the most influential journals from, say, Elsevier. When we approached them with this query, their answer was that they can’t “maintain” a multitude of lists. Again, taking an easy way out and making life unnecessarily difficult for the already-deprived academia.
By the way, this is not to say that the students/scholars here aren’t lacking both in effort and in skills. I guess all I’m trying to say is that HEC, being the quality assurer needs to do more.
HEC always make stupid and funny rules to tease student and teachers.
People do Phd abroad have no GRE and without journal paper.
If it is really necessary to have a test before phd is being awarded then HEC should test the institute or the professor who is awarding. Student has already pass the entrance exam and now only award giving authority is the one to ask for anything.
GRE is indeed necessory ,,
If we think positivley Americans are spending alot on their education system. Our student only aftraid of the test free. 160 dollars 14000 thousands rupies. very very expensive….
Although tallent is no problem here but the cultre will need time to promote it.. I have been once in american CAT online system. I really love their ways of ananlysisng the student rather thank looking at their transcript.
Degrees should be given to the deserving.
merit should be same for all.
8 discipline should give gre and 12 should not give.Is it justice
If there is absolutely no criteria for the PhD admission then every one would get a PhD degree and this is what exactly happening in Pakistan. PhD is becoming so worthless like a BSc or FSc because every one can secure a degree without appearing in any competative exam. Unfortunately, there is no independent check for this. There are PhDs who could hardly explan what the hell they have done in their thesis, nor they are able to deliver any service to the society. Is it what PhD mean???
Secondly, It is becoming a number game between teachers. There is a race between supervisors to increase the number of phd produced (of what ever quality). If you expect educational institutions and teachers to increase their standards, its not gonna happen without independent evaluation.
Shabbir
First of all rule maker should take GRE International by themselves. How they may check the quality of PhD from UK. Who does his/her PhD even though without courses and MS/MPhil degree. Total PhD span is around 3.5 (PhD) + 4 (BS) = 7.5 years. While North America and Pakistan Phd Span is 3.5 (PhD) + 2 (MS) + 4 (BS) = 9.5 years. If HEC applied a rule for PhD student to take GRE subject as an admission criteria then all PhD supervisors should also take GRE subject before supervising PhD students. HEC should not compromise on quality. I think in Pakistan every person is living in mythical world.
AoA everyone,
I am in NUST so I will be talking about whatever I have seen in NUST. Not sure about the rest, but I think other universities also follow the same rules.
Consider the following (HEC imposed) requirements to a successful completion of a PhD degree (Computer Science) in Pakistan:-
– 30 Credit hours of grad coursework, with at LEAST a B+ grade in ALL subjects.
– Clearing a comprehensive qualifying exam.
– Clearing of GRE Subject exam (in which case the qualifier exam then does not make sense).
– Publication of at LEAST one INTERNATIONAL journal (of indexed value) paper.
– Publication of at LEAST two INTERNATIONAL conference papers (again indexed).
– A Positive feedback from at LEAST TWO researchers from Abroad in the specified area.
– Final Thesis defense.
I have not included smaller landmarks that a PhD scholar needs to achieve in between.
Now let us focus on the PhDs that we are receiving from abroad. We have a young Asst Prof recently returned from UK. Won’t name him or his UK University. To this day he does not have A SINGLE research paper publication. He did NOT Clear GRE Subject exam, let alone a GRE Subject exam. Completed his PhD within 3 years. He is an Asst Prof earning much more than his counterparts with a “LOCAL” PhD, and he is an HEC recognized PhD supervisor. Common people, can’t you see discrepencies in HEC policies. Blindly following SOME U.S Universities is not going to do any good to our Higher education policy. Even many “Good” U.S Universities do not require even the GRE general. MIT, purdue to name a few. You can check their admission reqs.
Draw your own conclusions now.
In the absence of any market driven quality control GRE provides a good intellectual calibration of the students. Whatever the internal dynamics of education are in Pakistan, with a simple example I would like to emphasize the importance of this test. Most of the international students who apply for graduate admissions at our school get teaching or research assistance if their GRE score (V+Q) is greater than 1300. For those who score 1400 and above, all they have to do is to buy airline ticket and their graduate career is set at right trajectory. For American students with similar or better scores, the pot is sweeter.
GRE may not be required for admission on some campuses but it is the only criterion for research assistance.
Dear Anwar, I think you are missing the point here. First of all you are talking about RA or TAShip in US universities.NOT the point under consideration. Then you are talking about GRE General. Again, NOT the point under consideration here. Having appeared for the GRE General exam for 3 times It surely is NOT the criterion to judge someone’s research potential (at least in my opinion). It doesn’t even reflect your quantitative abilities in its true sense. ALL it checks is your ability to find short cut solutions to trivial math problems. Who cares if I can do a simple math sum in 3.435 seconds :-) In my opinion if you can do the same math in 2 or even 10 minutes, thats good enough.
Now lets talk about an individual’s research potential and the ability to pursue a PhD degree (the point under consideration). Most would agree that if you have to your credit a few very good journal and/or conference papers then you HAVE research potential. This statement is strengthened by the fact that top US Universities such as Purdue and MIT, base their admission decisions on demonstrated research potential (which is paper publication) and NOT the GRE general or Subject exam. Both of these Universities DO NOT require a GRE score for admission. Once admitted, you are sure to get TA / RAShip and don’t need to worry about expenses.
The same should apply in Pakistan. If someone in Pakistan can get the same kind of journal / onference publications, then (s)he should not be required to clear the GRE exam.
Just to add another aspect, Should HEC and Universities accept the PhD degrees of people who have earned their degrees from abroad, who did not appear for a GRE (general or subject) exam while getting admission to their programs, who completed their PhDs in 3 years (including course work and research) and have less or no publications at all, to their credit as compared with their LOCAL counterparts. Is the label “Foreign PhD” good enough a standard to judge competence or are we seeing double standards here as well……
If it is that HEC will not award PhD scholarship to a candidate even if he qualifies other conditions for a PhD scholarship, then, it’s OK, to implement GRE condition to ensure quality of candidates but if it is that HEC will not recognize PhD status of scholars who have completed their PhD, it’s pathetic. It directly means that HEC is humiliating the institute which have awarded the PhD degree to the student. “GRE’s” are the means to measure the ability of a candidate to assess if he/ she will be able to complete the course but if one has already completed it there is no point to ask for a graduate level GRE Score.
Faisal, A good quality research at graduate level that result in journal papers is indeed a proof of student’s ability to pursue a successful career. The problem is at the start-up – i.e. if a student applies for admission after BS,what criterion besides transcript and letters of recommendation the admission committee has? GRE therefore is additional indicator. For transfer to PhD program and/or admission, GRE is certainly not needed as the MS thesis and publications derived from it are a sufficient proof.
There are very few students who have a “publication record” based on undergraduate research… they are sought after by a number of schools and GRE is not a requirement.
I may also add that even NSF does not require GRE for graduate fellowships but applicants still list their scores and during deliberations for award, invariably, GRE plays an important role….
Nevertheless, by advocating the importance of GRE I only want Pakistani students to know that they have additional avenues for furthering their education abroad.
Agreed. At the time of admission to the graduate program, GRE subject might be the only indicator of quality of a candidate’s undergrad degree in the absence of any research publications. But as it is evident from varying admission requirements by different US universities, shouldn’t HEC let Pakistani universities determine their own admission criteria / standards. Also, you have not said anything regarding the foreign-qualified faculty in Pakistani Universities who neither appeared for GRE Subject exam, nor do they have any research publications… What about their research potential which might still be POTENTIAL and nothing that can be quantified.
[...] Editor’s Note: A general discussion page on the GRE requirement introduced by the HEC exists here. [...]
Getting an admission and getting a degree are two different things. GRE (General or Subject) might be considered as an ‘admission’ criterion. This definitely does not mean that the student is ‘capable’ of finishing Ph.D. He/She is only capable of ‘entering’ a Ph.D. program. For granting a degree, the institution has a set of criteria like Qualifying Exams, Coursework, Dissertation etc. Clearing a Qual exam will actually show that the student is ‘capable’ of doing significant research. Note that he/she might not be able to overcome the other hurdles (which happens a lot by the way).
I have nothing to say anything except “HEC is the same institution as other Pakistan government institution”. “FAIL” :-(
[...] Editor’s Note: A general discussion page on the GRE requirement introduced by the HEC exists here. [...]
In my opinion , GRE shouldn’t be considered as a mandatory requirement for Phd because it is not necessary that one who has a command in quantitative analysis can write quality journals . For better publications, one needs to have a more visionary thinking along with the interpretation skills. Interpretations can’t be linked with number variations only . Numbers are totally dependent on the approach of doing certain analysis. To understand the approach , one needs to have the intellectual intelligence & broader way of thinking . This intellectual intelligence & broader thinking can’t be tested by a simple English verbal & Quantitative test . According to me, everyone has to be comprehensively interviewed who wants to enroll for Phd with or without GRE . Alternatively additional points can be given to the individuals who got good scores in GRE but final selection should be done on the basis of performance in interview.
Great discussion for unfolding the impediments in the HEC Quality Assurance programs for Higher Eduction (doctoral programs) in Pakistan. I must re-phrase the comments of one of the scholars above:
“GRE-TEST HAS NO LINKAGES WHAT-SO-EVER WITH REASEARCH OR DOCTORAL DEGREE PROGRAMME OR EVEN NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (as irrationally contested by HEC)”
HEC has tried to support the relevance of GRE test on the following assumptions / arguments:
“Incompetency of scholars of writing a single application, describing basic concepts of their major discipline, motivating and inspiring about their field of study”
I believe that HEC should rather focus on secondary education if the objective is improving writing, motivational and inspiring skills of scholars, because PhD scholars are already judged well before a scholar attains a PhD degree.
The HEC has confused itself and others as well, in determining the right policies for Quality Assurance for PhD program. The HEC must realize that there is no relevance and evidence in support for GRE exam (graduate level test) to be forced on PhD scholars. The PhD scholars already have to undergo a series of extensive evaluations which is beyond the level of GRE exam(a low graded and non-effective evaluation criteria for PhD)
Extensive Requirements (logical and Justified ones)for PhD program:
1. Completion of 30 credit hours, out of which 24 credit hours course work and 6 credit hours of reseacrh work (thesis) for admission into Ph.D program.
2. Minimum CGPA 3.00 or First Division in MS/M.Phil/Equivalent Degree for continuing into Ph.D.
3. Additional Ph.D. level course work of at least 18 credit hours.
4. Comprehensive Examination for PhD coursework
5. Open defense of Dissertation for award of PhD degree
6. Acceptance/publication of at least one research paper in an HEC approved “X” category journal for the award of Ph.D. degree (“Y” in case of Social Sciences only).
7. Plagiarism Test on the Dissertation before its submission to the two foreign experts.
8. Ph.D. Dissertation evaluated by at least two Ph.D. experts from technologically/academically advanced foreign countries in addition to local Committee members.
In view of the above requirements for PhD, it would be a shame for the PhD scholars to undergo a graduate level exam like the GRE, which has no connection to research.
I would also like to highlight the discrepancies in the HEC policy documents posted on the HEC website. The HEC experts continue to add unsigned MPhil/PhD requirement policy document on the HEC website with different versions showing approval by the commission on 11th January 2010. I have 3 different versions of HEC PhD policy with myself, showing approval date of 11th January 2010. This has been done overnight again and again to hide the flaws in the actual policy which was approved on January,11,2010. Moreover, all the new requirements introduced in the 11th January 2010 PhD policy has also been implemented (retrospectively)on those admissions before 11th January 2010. This is against the common law of nature and can be simply challenged in the court of law and struck down with the stroke of pen.
Lastly, our friends in HEC may like to consider the following suggestion, if they are really serious in imposing Quality Assurance in higher education in Pakistan:
” Remove the illogical GRE requirement for PhD and instead may consider in increasing the number of international publications for the PhD degree. It would be acceptable to all the PhD scholars who widely find their competence in research. Such publications would not only increase their professional development but also highlight the potential of research in Pakistan and its greater acceptance worldwide”.
The GRE conditions could never achieve any of the above, however research surely can.
The GRE not only tests analytical skills but also english skills. We are all for quality, but as soon as that challenges our qualification, we become apprehensive. If somebody is trying to implement some way of quality control, let it be. Let us discuss other ways once there is at least one check in place. We can discuss and improve upon a system, or just keep arguing and nothing will ever change.