Comments on: Discussion: Should Pakistani PhD students need to clear the GRE before being awarded their PhDs? http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds Tue, 22 Nov 2011 01:54:55 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Aziz http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-6602 Aziz Thu, 09 Sep 2010 19:09:21 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-6602 The GRE not only tests analytical skills but also english skills. We are all for quality, but as soon as that challenges our qualification, we become apprehensive. If somebody is trying to implement some way of quality control, let it be. Let us discuss other ways once there is at least one check in place. We can discuss and improve upon a system, or just keep arguing and nothing will ever change. The GRE not only tests analytical skills but also english skills. We are all for quality, but as soon as that challenges our qualification, we become apprehensive. If somebody is trying to implement some way of quality control, let it be. Let us discuss other ways once there is at least one check in place. We can discuss and improve upon a system, or just keep arguing and nothing will ever change.

]]> By: Non-Gre PhD Scholar http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-6169 Non-Gre PhD Scholar Mon, 06 Sep 2010 04:24:47 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-6169 Great discussion for unfolding the impediments in the HEC Quality Assurance programs for Higher Eduction (doctoral programs) in Pakistan. I must re-phrase the comments of one of the scholars above: “GRE-TEST HAS NO LINKAGES WHAT-SO-EVER WITH REASEARCH OR DOCTORAL DEGREE PROGRAMME OR EVEN NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (as irrationally contested by HEC)” HEC has tried to support the relevance of GRE test on the following assumptions / arguments: “Incompetency of scholars of writing a single application, describing basic concepts of their major discipline, motivating and inspiring about their field of study” I believe that HEC should rather focus on secondary education if the objective is improving writing, motivational and inspiring skills of scholars, because PhD scholars are already judged well before a scholar attains a PhD degree. The HEC has confused itself and others as well, in determining the right policies for Quality Assurance for PhD program. The HEC must realize that there is no relevance and evidence in support for GRE exam (graduate level test) to be forced on PhD scholars. The PhD scholars already have to undergo a series of extensive evaluations which is beyond the level of GRE exam(a low graded and non-effective evaluation criteria for PhD) Extensive Requirements (logical and Justified ones)for PhD program: 1. Completion of 30 credit hours, out of which 24 credit hours course work and 6 credit hours of reseacrh work (thesis) for admission into Ph.D program. 2. Minimum CGPA 3.00 or First Division in MS/M.Phil/Equivalent Degree for continuing into Ph.D. 3. Additional Ph.D. level course work of at least 18 credit hours. 4. Comprehensive Examination for PhD coursework 5. Open defense of Dissertation for award of PhD degree 6. Acceptance/publication of at least one research paper in an HEC approved “X” category journal for the award of Ph.D. degree (“Y” in case of Social Sciences only). 7. Plagiarism Test on the Dissertation before its submission to the two foreign experts. 8. Ph.D. Dissertation evaluated by at least two Ph.D. experts from technologically/academically advanced foreign countries in addition to local Committee members. In view of the above requirements for PhD, it would be a shame for the PhD scholars to undergo a graduate level exam like the GRE, which has no connection to research. I would also like to highlight the discrepancies in the HEC policy documents posted on the HEC website. The HEC experts continue to add unsigned MPhil/PhD requirement policy document on the HEC website with different versions showing approval by the commission on 11th January 2010. I have 3 different versions of HEC PhD policy with myself, showing approval date of 11th January 2010. This has been done overnight again and again to hide the flaws in the actual policy which was approved on January,11,2010. Moreover, all the new requirements introduced in the 11th January 2010 PhD policy has also been implemented (retrospectively)on those admissions before 11th January 2010. This is against the common law of nature and can be simply challenged in the court of law and struck down with the stroke of pen. Lastly, our friends in HEC may like to consider the following suggestion, if they are really serious in imposing Quality Assurance in higher education in Pakistan: ” Remove the illogical GRE requirement for PhD and instead may consider in increasing the number of international publications for the PhD degree. It would be acceptable to all the PhD scholars who widely find their competence in research. Such publications would not only increase their professional development but also highlight the potential of research in Pakistan and its greater acceptance worldwide”. The GRE conditions could never achieve any of the above, however research surely can. Great discussion for unfolding the impediments in the HEC Quality Assurance programs for Higher Eduction (doctoral programs) in Pakistan. I must re-phrase the comments of one of the scholars above:

“GRE-TEST HAS NO LINKAGES WHAT-SO-EVER WITH REASEARCH OR DOCTORAL DEGREE PROGRAMME OR EVEN NATIONAL DEVELOPMENT (as irrationally contested by HEC)”

HEC has tried to support the relevance of GRE test on the following assumptions / arguments:

“Incompetency of scholars of writing a single application, describing basic concepts of their major discipline, motivating and inspiring about their field of study”

I believe that HEC should rather focus on secondary education if the objective is improving writing, motivational and inspiring skills of scholars, because PhD scholars are already judged well before a scholar attains a PhD degree.

The HEC has confused itself and others as well, in determining the right policies for Quality Assurance for PhD program. The HEC must realize that there is no relevance and evidence in support for GRE exam (graduate level test) to be forced on PhD scholars. The PhD scholars already have to undergo a series of extensive evaluations which is beyond the level of GRE exam(a low graded and non-effective evaluation criteria for PhD)

Extensive Requirements (logical and Justified ones)for PhD program:
1. Completion of 30 credit hours, out of which 24 credit hours course work and 6 credit hours of reseacrh work (thesis) for admission into Ph.D program.

2. Minimum CGPA 3.00 or First Division in MS/M.Phil/Equivalent Degree for continuing into Ph.D.

3. Additional Ph.D. level course work of at least 18 credit hours.

4. Comprehensive Examination for PhD coursework

5. Open defense of Dissertation for award of PhD degree

6. Acceptance/publication of at least one research paper in an HEC approved “X” category journal for the award of Ph.D. degree (“Y” in case of Social Sciences only).

7. Plagiarism Test on the Dissertation before its submission to the two foreign experts.

8. Ph.D. Dissertation evaluated by at least two Ph.D. experts from technologically/academically advanced foreign countries in addition to local Committee members.

In view of the above requirements for PhD, it would be a shame for the PhD scholars to undergo a graduate level exam like the GRE, which has no connection to research.

I would also like to highlight the discrepancies in the HEC policy documents posted on the HEC website. The HEC experts continue to add unsigned MPhil/PhD requirement policy document on the HEC website with different versions showing approval by the commission on 11th January 2010. I have 3 different versions of HEC PhD policy with myself, showing approval date of 11th January 2010. This has been done overnight again and again to hide the flaws in the actual policy which was approved on January,11,2010. Moreover, all the new requirements introduced in the 11th January 2010 PhD policy has also been implemented (retrospectively)on those admissions before 11th January 2010. This is against the common law of nature and can be simply challenged in the court of law and struck down with the stroke of pen.

Lastly, our friends in HEC may like to consider the following suggestion, if they are really serious in imposing Quality Assurance in higher education in Pakistan:

” Remove the illogical GRE requirement for PhD and instead may consider in increasing the number of international publications for the PhD degree. It would be acceptable to all the PhD scholars who widely find their competence in research. Such publications would not only increase their professional development but also highlight the potential of research in Pakistan and its greater acceptance worldwide”.

The GRE conditions could never achieve any of the above, however research surely can.

]]> By: Azher http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-4311 Azher Sun, 08 Aug 2010 14:46:56 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-4311 In my opinion , GRE shouldn't be considered as a mandatory requirement for Phd because it is not necessary that one who has a command in quantitative analysis can write quality journals . For better publications, one needs to have a more visionary thinking along with the interpretation skills. Interpretations can't be linked with number variations only . Numbers are totally dependent on the approach of doing certain analysis. To understand the approach , one needs to have the intellectual intelligence & broader way of thinking . This intellectual intelligence & broader thinking can't be tested by a simple English verbal & Quantitative test . According to me, everyone has to be comprehensively interviewed who wants to enroll for Phd with or without GRE . Alternatively additional points can be given to the individuals who got good scores in GRE but final selection should be done on the basis of performance in interview. In my opinion , GRE shouldn’t be considered as a mandatory requirement for Phd because it is not necessary that one who has a command in quantitative analysis can write quality journals . For better publications, one needs to have a more visionary thinking along with the interpretation skills. Interpretations can’t be linked with number variations only . Numbers are totally dependent on the approach of doing certain analysis. To understand the approach , one needs to have the intellectual intelligence & broader way of thinking . This intellectual intelligence & broader thinking can’t be tested by a simple English verbal & Quantitative test . According to me, everyone has to be comprehensively interviewed who wants to enroll for Phd with or without GRE . Alternatively additional points can be given to the individuals who got good scores in GRE but final selection should be done on the basis of performance in interview.

]]> By: GRE Subject (International) as a PhD requirement: A Busted Myth | Educational Resources http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1785 GRE Subject (International) as a PhD requirement: A Busted Myth | Educational Resources Sat, 12 Jun 2010 04:27:04 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1785 [...] Editor’s Note: A general discussion page on the GRE requirement introduced by the HEC exists here. [...] [...] Editor’s Note: A general discussion page on the GRE requirement introduced by the HEC exists here. [...]

]]> By: Adnan http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1611 Adnan Fri, 28 May 2010 13:51:13 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1611 I have nothing to say anything except "HEC is the same institution as other Pakistan government institution". "FAIL" :-( I have nothing to say anything except “HEC is the same institution as other Pakistan government institution”. “FAIL” :-(

]]> By: Shazli http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1523 Shazli Fri, 21 May 2010 16:29:22 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1523 Getting an admission and getting a degree are two different things. GRE (General or Subject) might be considered as an 'admission' criterion. This definitely does not mean that the student is 'capable' of finishing Ph.D. He/She is only capable of 'entering' a Ph.D. program. For granting a degree, the institution has a set of criteria like Qualifying Exams, Coursework, Dissertation etc. Clearing a Qual exam will actually show that the student is 'capable' of doing significant research. Note that he/she might not be able to overcome the other hurdles (which happens a lot by the way). Getting an admission and getting a degree are two different things. GRE (General or Subject) might be considered as an ‘admission’ criterion. This definitely does not mean that the student is ‘capable’ of finishing Ph.D. He/She is only capable of ‘entering’ a Ph.D. program. For granting a degree, the institution has a set of criteria like Qualifying Exams, Coursework, Dissertation etc. Clearing a Qual exam will actually show that the student is ‘capable’ of doing significant research. Note that he/she might not be able to overcome the other hurdles (which happens a lot by the way).

]]> By: GRE Subject (International): A Busted Myth | STEP - Science, Technology, and Education in Pakistan http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1442 GRE Subject (International): A Busted Myth | STEP - Science, Technology, and Education in Pakistan Fri, 14 May 2010 13:52:42 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1442 [...] Editor’s Note: A general discussion page on the GRE requirement introduced by the HEC exists here. [...] [...] Editor’s Note: A general discussion page on the GRE requirement introduced by the HEC exists here. [...]

]]> By: Faisal http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1355 Faisal Tue, 04 May 2010 17:57:16 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1355 Agreed. At the time of admission to the graduate program, GRE subject might be the only indicator of quality of a candidate's undergrad degree in the absence of any research publications. But as it is evident from varying admission requirements by different US universities, shouldn't HEC let Pakistani universities determine their own admission criteria / standards. Also, you have not said anything regarding the foreign-qualified faculty in Pakistani Universities who neither appeared for GRE Subject exam, nor do they have any research publications... What about their research potential which might still be POTENTIAL and nothing that can be quantified. Agreed. At the time of admission to the graduate program, GRE subject might be the only indicator of quality of a candidate’s undergrad degree in the absence of any research publications. But as it is evident from varying admission requirements by different US universities, shouldn’t HEC let Pakistani universities determine their own admission criteria / standards. Also, you have not said anything regarding the foreign-qualified faculty in Pakistani Universities who neither appeared for GRE Subject exam, nor do they have any research publications… What about their research potential which might still be POTENTIAL and nothing that can be quantified.

]]> By: ASIF GOHAR http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1335 ASIF GOHAR Mon, 03 May 2010 15:27:27 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1335 GREAT TEHSEEN I AGREE GREAT TEHSEEN I AGREE

]]> By: Anwar http://www.nextstepforward.net/general-pakistan/discussion-should-pakistani-phd-students-need-to-clear-the-gre-before-being-awarded-their-phds/comment-page-1/#comment-1289 Anwar Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:01:55 +0000 http://www.nextstepforward.net/?p=2786#comment-1289 Faisal, A good quality research at graduate level that result in journal papers is indeed a proof of student's ability to pursue a successful career. The problem is at the start-up - i.e. if a student applies for admission after BS,what criterion besides transcript and letters of recommendation the admission committee has? GRE therefore is additional indicator. For transfer to PhD program and/or admission, GRE is certainly not needed as the MS thesis and publications derived from it are a sufficient proof. There are very few students who have a "publication record" based on undergraduate research... they are sought after by a number of schools and GRE is not a requirement. I may also add that even NSF does not require GRE for graduate fellowships but applicants still list their scores and during deliberations for award, invariably, GRE plays an important role.... Nevertheless, by advocating the importance of GRE I only want Pakistani students to know that they have additional avenues for furthering their education abroad. Faisal, A good quality research at graduate level that result in journal papers is indeed a proof of student’s ability to pursue a successful career. The problem is at the start-up – i.e. if a student applies for admission after BS,what criterion besides transcript and letters of recommendation the admission committee has? GRE therefore is additional indicator. For transfer to PhD program and/or admission, GRE is certainly not needed as the MS thesis and publications derived from it are a sufficient proof.
There are very few students who have a “publication record” based on undergraduate research… they are sought after by a number of schools and GRE is not a requirement.
I may also add that even NSF does not require GRE for graduate fellowships but applicants still list their scores and during deliberations for award, invariably, GRE plays an important role….
Nevertheless, by advocating the importance of GRE I only want Pakistani students to know that they have additional avenues for furthering their education abroad.

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